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debate to the service of women in the community IX

Reply # 4 by Kurt Vetterli

only once (to complete the part then really) very briefly to your statements about the subordination and culture : I am always with your remarks about the team management of the man, and so agree, agrees. Only just I think there clearly is something else to wear head scarves instead of wedding rings to fold his hands instead of pick up or whether one or the (mixed-gender) community authoritatively teaches or not.
But I see that I am at that point would only repeat what does not continue this discussion .... Shortly
something on to your next point man of a woman. You say: In the simple phrase "husband of one wife" is the "man" binding, but not "a woman".
No, I think both are authentic. Just that thing for "husband of one wife," the number word ' a' must stress. But I think I have mentioned already once before. Again, I would wiederholfen me ...
And the thing with the obedient, faithful and believing children - or even children - is a much debated matter, even among those who do not see conducting a community service for the woman. There is such a need here to say that a pastor or elder to give up his position when, for example one of his children turn away from faith. There are all sorts of conclusions drawn from these statements. I think it would go too far here, all of these design variants below, to discuss our issue.

The argument that if Phoebe is mentioned as a servant of the church, as Paul servant of the church is called, that you then use this in you should see it as a title, I find something far-fetched. These words mean but simply that both serve the community. It could be any Christian who is committed in any way for the community is doing any service to be called servants of the community, without being so holds a position of authority, which is similar to that of Paul ...


but now I would definitely leave this point, I think, because we would only turn in circles. Let's go to the point of reasoning with the order of creation about

For your question about the guilt of the woman (Eve) in the fall I'm not quite sure I understand what you want to ask .... Let me put it this way:
course, Adam was not deceived, when Paul says so. Or would you build your position in favor of a contradiction in Scripture? ;-)
I believe that in 1 Timothy 2:14 comes to say that it (by the two people present) was not Adam who was fooled by the snake, and first fell into sin. The gateway for the sin was the woman. But the blame lies with Adam, because he had the situation not according to its Responsibility under control. He has cast its spiritual leadership responsibilities as Federal Capital is not exercised, but left his wife. This came into the sin of the woman in humanity. Paul leads the in the context because he wants the men in this responsibility. They should exercise the spiritual leadership in the community. For women, a fundamentally different role is, see V. 15
When Paul in 1 Corinthians 14:33 f scheibt:
As in all communities of believers, not the women in the communities because it is not lawful for them to talk, but they should be subordinate, as even the law says . ..
... then he speaks also this thing on. The only place in the law, this is where something is, after the Fall (Gen 3:16): will be your desire, and he shall rule over thee to thy husband!
The desire of the woman after the man is the publishers to define him. This is a consequence of sin. This is not to be so. The man should exercise its responsibility as a principal. In the community including the fact that he does not draw the line of responsibility to women. For the woman who teaches and practices guides, authority over a man (their own and others) from.

summarized the whole thing again: The fall was the hierarchical order of gender confusion. Why was the sin in the world. Paul recalls, because he wants to stop the men not to reinstate in a manner so that women come in a spiritual leadership position (as Eva had held them in the Fall). For this very reason, he links the teachers and administration ban on women with the order of creation and the fall.
.

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debate Service the woman in the town VIII

Reply # 4 by Christian Haslebacher

You write: " Paul insists that women be subordinate to their husbands. And therefore they may not doctrinally give them instructions tell them how they should behave "

I answer. If the wife in Ephesians 5.22 to subordinate stopped by her husband, is in Ephesians 5:25 in the strongest man's love for wife demanded that breaks down all rule and graces. Just as it is of course not only for men but for women is that they should love their spouse (Rom 13.8-9, Mt 22.37-40; 1 John 4:7-8), is the subordination also also the role of the man. Ephesians 5.21 says against the subordination of women by the mutual submission. As for the church members also applies to spouses, including husbands: "Do nothing from selfishness ... but in humility regard others better than himself, and every look not to your own interests, but on what is the other" (Phil 2:3-4). In addition, has to submit to the man Christ (1 Corinthians 11:3). It is in Ephesians 5.21 to 33 words to the specific subordination of the wife in the light of mutual submission. An outstanding example of such mutual subordination of the spouse Paul describes in first Corinthians 7.4, according to which the women in matters of sexuality the same authority ( exousiazo ; Lk 22.25) on their husbands as men exert over their wives. What is the main structure and the subordination of women expressed positive? What does submission mean? In general, spouses of partnership and unanimous decisions for the benefit of the community of marriage will be considered. However, where a decision can be made, before the spouse can agree, or if an unresolvable impasse arises that can not be displayed or simply solve later, must meet a member of the community of marriage a casting vote. One aspect of the subordination of women lies in obedience to join in this decision of the man (1Peter 3:6) and the man continue to honor (Eph 5.33). Paul is following in the "team" of marriage, the role of "team leader" in principle to the man. (Exceptions can there be if the man to defend its responsibility as the head and "team leader" for example due to mental or physical suffering can.) Such (paulus according to) the subordination of the wife under the decision of her husband, also refers to the commitment and occurrence of the spouses in the public and the community. The participation of women in the community is done in consultation with her husband, which is to say that in a healthy marriage and the cooperation of the man in the community in consultation with his wife happens. I feel that can share in our culture a woman in the community teaching, without breaking out of submission to her husband.

You write: ". Obedience to this prohibition can not be practiced by women teach it and to define 'culture' behave somewhat differently"

I answer: Obedience to the "instructions" to wash one another's feet to wear a headscarf in prayer, to greet one another with a brotherly kiss, and lift their hands in prayer, may your Following argument does not also practiced by all of these things does not and 'culture' somehow behaves differently. As I said, I understand the silence of women as a cultural contingent sign of submission, as I watch your feet, head scarf, brother kiss and consider repeal of the hands as culturally determined.

If you say that celibacy and childlessness are no obstacles for the office of elder, this clearly contradicts the instructions of Paul, who says an elder should husband of a woman to be (1 Tim 3:00 , 2) and obedient children (1 Timothy 3:4). Apparently hold So you do not all instructions in 1 Timothy 3 for universal application. That there should be a man think, but you generally binding. In the simple phrase "husband of one wife" so the "man" binding, but not "a woman". How do you know that the binding with the man is? You refers to 1 Timothy 2:11 ff This is a circular argument. In your opening statement you said that the statements of Paul in 1 Timothy, from 2.12 to 14 are mandatory and have to justify it identifies three arguments, including first Timothy third Now you Justification 1 Again on 1 Timothy 3 2nd Timothy

again shortly to Phoebe and the question of what kind of deacon she was. The term comes diakonos in Paul's letters 19 times before (Long live BibleWorks!). The authorities as well as Paul and his companions are referred to as a servant of God (Romans 13.3-4, 1 Cor 3.5 to 7, 2 Corinthians 6:4), false apostles, Paul, Epaphras and Timothy as servants of Christ (2 Cor 11:23; Colossians 1:7; 1 Timothy 4:6), Paul and his companion as a servant of the new covenant and the Gospel (2 Corinthians 3:6; Eph 3.6 to 7, Colossians 1:23), Christ as a servant of the Jews (Rom. 15.8) and as a servant of sin (Galatians 2.17 in a rhetorical question), the false apostles as servants of Satan and false servants of righteousness (2 Cor 11.14-15) and Tychicus as a servant and brother of Paul (Ephesians 6.21, Colossians 4:7). In Philippians 1:1 and 1Timotheus 3 the term deacon is used as a title. A deacon has to keep one of its tasks, the "mystery of faith" (1 Tim 3.9, see instructions to Timothy in 1:19). Paul refers to "secret" content predominantly (at least 18 of 21 positions) to God's saving action in Christ, the Gospel. Deacon as an official designation is a deacon in the church (cf. 1 Tim 3:15). Paul calls Phoebe "deacon of the church" (Romans 16:1). Besides Phoebe just another person is called a "deacon of the church": Paul himself (Col. 1.24 to 25). He is "by the ministry which God has given me, that I should preach to you his word, abundant, namely the secret ..." - again this mystery. It somehow seems to be the "deacon of the church" connected to. When Paul Phoebe So "deacon of the church" calls, one should not underestimate that.

But we turn now to the main argument that the reference of Paul to the order of creation and the fall of Eve. As I've written for today believe enough, allow me once again to close with a question. According to Romans 5:12 and 1 Corinthians 15.21-22 came through Adam sin and death into the world. In 1 Timothy 2.14 Paul writes, however, that Eve was tempted and fell into transgression (cf. 2 Corinthians 11:3), Adam was not deceived (and fell into transgression). My question to you: Is this statement of Paul in 1 Timothy 2.14. Adam was not deceived? He was not in violation? Calvin corrected the statement in 1 Timothy 2.14 in his commentary in any event, referring to Romans 5 and rejected a special debt of the woman in the fall.

.

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How to change the password from the SDM (Software Deployment Manager)

It may be that one time in the SDM has to change the password!

do you go to the directory / usr / sap / / / SDM / program

and calls the following commands:

StopServer.sh

sdm.sh jstartup "mode = standalone"

sdm.sh ChangePassword "newpassword = xxx"

sdm.sh jstartup "mode = integrated"

StartServer.sh


password has been changed in this case to xxx ...

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Tips & Tricks for troubleshooting workflow issues

agent assignment [1] / agent determination
[2] Workflow Hanging
[3] Performance in SAP Business Workplace (SBWP)
[4] Events
[5] Transport of workflow patterns
[6] Extended Notifications
[7] transactions for debugging
---- -------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------
[1] Agent Assignment / agent determination

work items are not the correct user or all users in the system assigned. You must correct the error. Identify the workflow patterns and the step in which the problem occurs, and check the following: Possible
agent

Determine the step in the workflow model of the Workflow Editor assigned task and click the button 'Edit Assignment'. The screen 'Agent Assignment &' for the object is displayed. (Alternatively, you can view the task of transaction PFTS or double-click the task ID in the crotch. Please use the menu path Additional Data => Agent Assignment => Maintain or ads.)

If the job is not possible agents are assigned or the task is not the Status 'General' (available for all users) has, this is most likely the cause of the problem in the processor assignment. You must be the task of users / posts / organizational units, etc. Assign them to be regarded the 'General' can.
Request handlers

Request handlers are assigned to the workflow step in the 'Edit'. Typically you will see posts, expressions or rules for determining the responsible agents. You need to check if processor is returned at run time. If the processor assignment is possible in your job right, you have to consider the request handlers. Go to the troubleshooting as follows:

o Rule If you use a rule, you can 'simulate rule resolution', the regular version of the print button simulate PFAC. A rule receives at run-time data from the workflow container. You should therefore check the flow of data in the workflow definition to which data from the workflow container to the control container to be passed. Then select the work item instance in which the problem occurs, and use the data from the workflow container for your simulation. Enter when using the simulation option in the Test Container PFAC F4 data. If not expected this task are returned, you must check the rule implementation, for example, whether you use a custom function module or responsibilities have maintained. If the return of the agents during the simulation run smoothly, but problems occur at run time, see SAP Note 755,767th


SAP Note 755 767 Description

special privileges in the workflow expression

o If you use to specify the responsible agents an expression, you must check the work item instance in which the problem occurred, and look what value in the expression in the workflow container. In the event of an unexpected value, you must determine where the Workflow, the term is filled to examine why the value is incorrect. A good way to figure out, exactly what steps to use a particular container element is to click the right mouse button on the container element in the Workflow Builder and select the "Show-reference" graphic. In this way, all steps are highlighted, in which the term is used Container-Element/der.

Useful transactions

* PFAC - Maintain / Display the default rule

* PFTC - Maintain / View tasks

* SWDD - Workflow Builder

PPOSW * - shows the organizational structure




[2] Workflow Hanging


This area is divided into four sections.

o Work Item enqueue

o SM58/SWU2

o Short dump during method execution

o transactions for restart of faulty work item


work item ENQUEUE

When a work item is running and tried the workflow run-time system, on the work item access, this does not work, because for the work item is currently a lock or enqueue. Some examples: Example 1


A user performs an asynchronous task. During the execution of the work item raised the terminating event in the system and tried to put the Workitemstatus to COMPLETE. However, this is due to the lock / enqueue not possible. In this case, the event in the event queue is buffered. Once the work item is released, it immediately delivers the buffered event. For more information, see SAP Note 749,945th


Example 2
you use parallel processing with a parallel section with 2 branches (one branch is required to complete). In a branch is a dialogue activity step and the other with a 'Wait for Ereignis' step. While dialogue step is performed by a user, the 'Wait to receive Ereignis'-step his event, and continues along the branch and terminates the parallel section (to remember: only one branch is required to complete). When the end of the parallel section is reached, the dialogue should work item on the status be set to "logically deleted". Because of the lock / enqueue the work item during the execution by the user this does not happen, however. Since a workflow needs to further embodiment, a callback, this callback is stopped (stored in the table SWP_SUSPEN). These callbacks can be restarted using the report RSWWERRE. If you are not scheduled the report RSWWERRE remain, the work items in the table SWP_SUSPEN received no call back and are therefore discontinued.


Troubleshooting

When hanging work items, look for the table SWP_SUSPEN whether the corresponding work item ID is available there. If so, make sure that the job RSWWERRE is engineered to deliver the work item again. If RSWWERRE is executed and the entry will not be extradited, search using the keywords "RSWWERRE" and "SWP_SUSPEN" to the SAP notes. If no entry exists in SWP_SUSPEN, check in the workflow definition, whether the work item is asynchronous, ie, whether it needs a terminating event as in Example 1 above. Check with transaction SWEQADM whether the terminating event in The event queue is buffered. If so, it should automatically be delivered again. Search through the SAP notes after the event queue.

SM58 or SWU2


may occasionally hang work items in case of network problems, system crashes and tRFC and qRFC problems in the system. In the technical workflow log, see work items with status "In Progress" or "Complete" will not continue with the next step. Search in transaction SM58 for entries relating to the tRFC execution in this case the best.

If you want to find that the work item corresponding entry in SM58, double-click the entry under 'Transaction ID'. Here you can find useful information such as the standard task, the business object, the object instance, the corresponding event and the work item ID. These details are not always indicated. However, you should receive sufficient information to identify the work item ID. For example, if the task ID is specified, call SWI1, enter the task ID and the date and time of the entry and you should work item identifier can find out.

Useful information

The entries in SM58 may be restarted when the problem because they are present in the list has been fixed. Select the entry from the list and go to the menu: Edit => LUW run to start a new entry. If you want to process more than one entry, go to the Edit menu, run => LUWs or schedule the report RSARRCEX one with the right data.

Short dump during method execution


Check in ST22 whether short dumps exist in respect of the related work item. If you look in ST22, both by date and time the work item execution and after the user running or WF-BATCH, you can usually figure out exactly where the dump occurred and whether it is custom code or standard SAP code. A short dump can be done in custom Code due to poor exception handling occur in the method code. In this case the best option, the object method of transaction SWO1 with the data from the work item container is to test, you can see the workflow log.

If it is the object method to SAP standard code, you need to find out what application is responsible for the object method and create a message in this component.

Useful information
Call SWO1, enter the business object and click the button "Show". Then click on the button "basic data". Here is listed with the business object associated program name. Run the report RSSTATUS therefore, to the component to which the object belongs to find objects such as FORMABSENC.

Program name: SWUFORMA
Run the report RSSTATUS of: component BC-BMT

transactions for restart of faulty work item

* SWPR - Workflow Restart After Error

* SWPC - resuming workflow after crash

* SWF_ADM_SUSPEND - restart of stalled workflow callbacks

SWF_ADM_SWWWIDH * - restart of stalled appointment callbacks




[3] Performance in SAP Business Workplace (SBWP)

The overall performance of SBWP can be achieved by Number of factors are controlled, which are listed below.

o Archiving

o table access and performance

o Performance of SBWP (available BAdIs)

o RFC


archiving

Insert a WORKITEM archiving strategy to maintain control over the size of your workflow table . Use transaction SARA and the archiving object WORKITEM to archive work items. Thus, the affected tables are listed. For more information, see SAP Note 573,656th The lower the number of entries in the workflow runtime tables, the better the performance the workflow engine.
SAP Note 573 656 Description
collective note for archiving in the workflow 621 258
archiving WORKITEM unifications
table access and performance


read and play the following SAP Notes.
SAP Note Description
98 407 Performance Workflow
799 002 Missing CLIENT in the database index
72 873 Performance of the workflow system, recommendations
72 923 performance of the business workflow, collecting information
861 380 SWW_CONTOB after SWW_WI2OBJ migration

performance SBWP (available BAdIs)

If you experience performance problems in SBWP, see SAP Note 764 707, some causes this. The main reason is that users far too many work items (several thousands) in their inputs. For the business end of some customers, it is necessary, all work items in the input rather than to have a more precise processor assignment used (call center scenario). Therefore, several BAdIs were provided to improve performance, eg by reducing the number of work items in the user inputs.

o WF_BWP_SELECT_FILTER the number of work items displayed will be limited by filtering with this BAdI. It is especially suitable for scenarios where all users on the same pool of work items are working (eg call center). (See SAP Note 765 783)

o WF_BWP_DYN_COLUMN the performance can be improved in the Business Workplace By hiding the dynamic columns. If this is not possible, you can implement the BAdI WF_BWP_DYN_COLUMN to the values of the dynamic columns to determine directly from the application data. The BAdI is provided with SAP Note 848 382 available.

o WF_BWP_OBJ_ATTRIBUTE this BAdI it is possible to set the default attributes of the leading object (_WI_Object_ID) and the grouping feature (_WI_Group_ID). The default attributes for grouping by content, grouping used for order term and to hide the column group object and work item contents. The BAdI is provided with SAP Note 848 382 available.

SAP Note Description
76 578 BADI for Business Workplace
764 707 Performance in the Business Workplace
848 382 BAdIs to improve performance in the Business Workplace


RFC

Be careful when implementing the proposals from SAP Note 888,279th If you register the target, your RFC-parameters have been set correctly, so that no delays occur in processing the work item executed by a lack of available dialog processes and so on.
SAP Note Description
888 279 regulation / distribution workflow load
98 407 Performance Workflow
[4] Events

disabling event linkage


If the event linkage is disabled, sent an e-mail to the SBWP the WF-administrator in the specified cause of the error is. Usually the cause of the surrender of bad data from the object event to the event consumers the workflow template. Check the input (not the workflow input) of the WF administrator about the time of deactivation. There you should find the answer.

Did you remember to use the event queue (transaction SWEQADM)? Use the
Event queue, you can try to balance the load of the triggered workflow. The event queue stores the results of the event linkage in a temporary database table after the start conditions and the test functions are evaluated (if you use start conditions).
You can also use event queue to store events, and these errors again after the correction to be delivered.

Set in SWE2 'enable event queue' the indicator in the event linkage.
Place beyond 'behavior on error feedback' to 'Coupling mark as incorrect'.

you can use the basic data of the event queue with the transaction SWEQADM set.
troubleshooting concerning the deactivation

Enable Event Trace (transaction Swel). If the coupling is turned off again, check the event trace with transaction SWEL. It should contain an entry for all the successful entries and an entry for the entry that has turned off the power. If you double-click it, you should receive information about the cause of deactivation. (It is not recommended, turned on the event trace during the production of long leave, as this can lead to performance problems. Turn it off once the connection is disabled.)

What event will trigger the workflow? Is this a standard system event or a custom event? For customer-specific events may occasionally occur that not all information on the event lead to the consumer / workflow to pass, so to deactivation.

To analyze the event container you should proceed as follows: Define a new entry in SWE2:

enter the event, you give the consumer type a username (your user name) and for the receiver function module SWE_EVENT_MAIL. You will receive for each event, the event container via e-mail and can see if data is missing. It is possible that a mandatory Input element in the workflow is not passed by the Ereingis.

Useful transactions

* Swel - Switching the event trace

SWEL * - View the event trace

* SWU0 - Event Simulation

* SWUe - Create an event

SWEQADM * - Event queue

* SWETYP - type couplings

* Sveinn - Instance couplings




[5] Transport of workflow patterns

First, read SAP Note 571 302 and make sure that you have recorded all of the above SAP Notes into your system .
SAP Note Description
571 302 Collective Note for archiving in the workflow
versions and activation

This section explains how versions work in relation to the transport of workflow patterns.

o Create or change a workflow in your development system and transport it to the test.

o If the workflow is already available in test instances are running and it is a new version of the workflow created in test. This is done to ensure that the existing instances the old version and new, can be used by the transportation authorities created the new version. If the workflow exists, but no instances (in test) are present, he is simply overwritten by the transport.


It is NOT necessary to synchronize versions between the systems.

troubleshooting in terms of versions and activation

o Is the clock of the source and target systems match?

o If you create new container elements in your workflow, make sure that their data references are also present in the test system.

o Have you created new challenges and added them to the workflow in the development system? If so make sure you that you have transported the object also in the quality system. O Have

In the target system with transaction swdm - looked> Transported Workflows -> Others? If there are problems, this is indicated in red.

o

Useful transactions

* swdm - Business Workflow Explorer


[6] Extended Notifications and Delta pull

If you are having SWN_SELSEN RSWNUWLSEL or performance problems, consider the following comments:
SAP Note Description
WF Notif
1105696: memory usage and performance of SWN_SELSEN

* The selection of the Notification / work item is tracked using the application log. You can log-in transaction level SWNCONFIG . Influence To do this, the transaction SWNCONFIG on and navigate to the General settings (General Settings). There you will find the setting MAX_PROBCLASS. Example, if you log level 1, only very important information logged. A change in the log-levels can have a positive impact on performance.

* The following are the main tasks of the program RSWNUWLSEL filter (in mode FULL):

o selection of all open dialog and deadline work items in the system. "Open" means they have the status READY, SELECTED, STARTED and COMMITTED.

o establishing the application of these work items.

o Notifications Add (relation of the work item to the user)

o save the notifications in the table SWN_NOTIF. This means the insertion of new, obsolete logical deletion and updating of existing notifications.


Check the following: o If

open work items available that are part of tasks that may be a problem with the processor assignment is, for example, if one or more tasks assigned to a position that does not exist anymore. If so, RSWNUWLSEL tried to set the editor for this work item, but to no avail and with slower performance. To determine this, run the transaction SWI2_ADM1 and check whether it contains a lot of work item without agent. If so, please re-organize the work items in your system. Also check whether the work items are relevant, and if not, they can be archived or deleted. For more information about deleting and archiving of work items, see SAP Note 573,656th

o Furthermore, there is the program RSWNNOTIFDEL. This deletes these entries from the table SWN_NOTIF which have the status "logically deleted". A Notification is given the status "logically deleted" if the corresponding work items completed (processed) are. So the number of entries keep in SWN_NOTIF as low as possible, plan RSWNNOTIFDEL a regular basis. It is recommended to run the program with the default value of 10 days. If this is not enough, you can change the value at a later date.



[7] transactions for debugging *

SWUD - Workflow diagnostic

* swdm - Business Workflow Explorer

SWUS * - test the workflow

* SWU8/SWF_TRC - workflow trace on / off

* SWU9/SWF_TRC - View the workflow trace

SWF_APPL_DISPLAY * - View the Application Log

* SWU0 - Event Simulation

* Swel - Event Trace On / Off

* SWEL - View the event trace

* SWPR - Workflow Restart After Error

* SWPC - resuming workflow after crash

* SWI2_DIAG - Diagnosis of Workflows with errors

* SWU2/SM58 - Workflow RFC Monitor

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debate in the service of women in the community VII

response # 3 by Kurt Vetterli

Sorry, but I have come back yet again to the matter of the culture and the silence. I can hardly believe that you can see not the point. You say that submission is expressed by silence is, in our culture is not given. Of course, unfortunately this is largely not true anymore. Precisely because feminism is so advanced that the issue of subordination can hardly be addressed, let alone practiced. And this problem just to the Christian community has penetrated. Therefore, here is the 'culture' so. Paul Demands that women be subordinate to their husbands. And therefore may not doctrinally give them instructions to tell them how they should behave. This is the point. And this thing just happens to be not bound by time or cultural context. Should it be in some distant corner of Africa to give a family of application of the matriarchy, so where the women give the men directions, then this is the culture of this strain. But the culture is therefore measured by the Holy Scriptures false. Paul has forbidden women to men and to teach them to exercise of authority. Obedience to this prohibition can not be practiced by women, but teach and to define 'culture' somehow behave differently. This is absurd!

On the issue of male extensions and prerequisites for management positions I would like to make it short.
you give actually the reason for the conditions of these offices quite so again as I see it also. If someone wanted to choose for such a service, you had to see that he brought his family in a spiritual leadership practice, the appropriate fruit.
If he had not been married, one would see the other things can. The celibacy or childlessness is certainly no obstacle for such an office, as you rightly say, Timothy otherwise would not have been qualified (Paul may have been widowed or divorced - His former seat in the council he would not hold may be a single).
I also believe that Paul would also house the office of deacon for men only - as is clear from the context. With 'women' in 1 Timothy 3:11 their wives are meant.
Of course, by the requirements that Paul is excluded certain men from the ministry of governance. Not only those who have more than one wife, or divorced and remarried were unlawful, or their family do not quite, but also drinking, quarrelsome, etc. But besides just and women. These were before, chapter 2, you remember certain excluded from such office. They should so do not teach and have authority over men. Therefore. And the heads are supposed to be teaching skills. Guide you through the lesson. This includes the women implicitly after they have been explicitly excluded in section 2 thereof. The fact that Phoebe had
the office of a deacon, I think unlikely. The term 'diakonos' exists only as a male. It is not primarily a term in the NT for the office, but comes more often as a general term for someone who does a service before. In this sense, Phoebe was a servant of the church in Cenchreae. You probably had not held the office of a deacon.

But at one point I want to give you was right: a male extension does not yet There is absolutely a man so in Greek also exclusively female terms with a male suffix, eg 'Parthenos' (Virgin).

I'm concerned, we can now move on to question the order of creation. This is also my opinion the more important point than the thing with the service conditions. Namely, how you interpreted me correctly, because I think that one can no more reason to come to this with cultural arguments. Just as God has designed man at his creation, he must live. The man is the first, the head of creation and therefore has the responsibility. He can not leave this to another creature and has no freedom, God's order to reverse or reinterpreted in order to shirk their responsibility. Since the fall, although it is his inclination to do so for convenience and to leave the woman. But God tells him clearly that he will not do that. The woman in return, take the sinful tendency to lead themselves. The man should not allow this (see, eg, Gen 3:16).
.

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debate in the service of women in the community VI

response # 3 by Christian Haslebacher

again shortly to 1 Tim 2.8: It is said there, Paul had intended that the men pray everywhere lifting up holy hands (present participle). I translated this with the present participle "while" you translated "by" translated, the translation unit "in prayer". The difference for me in this crucial question. The point is that Paul is here with his "I want" four lines before his "I permit no" does not fully general statement, but an at least partially culture-related.

When asked whether the subordination of women not to the (married) men in this day and age could be other than the silence to express you reply with two arguments: first

Teaching is not a culture-related posture. This is true, what concerns the content of teaching, but I have never doubted. My message is: the fact that subordination is expressed by silence is, in our culture but we could not. Therefore In order could now be expressed differently. The question of whether Paul did to the woman banned from teaching for a cultural statement, but another, which have yet to be clarified. The fact is simply that the verses in front of cultural and situational Application of spiritual principles abound.

second Paul makes reference to Adam and Eve. What Paul founded the order of creation can not be culturally determined. This is your real argument, which you absorb as a single in the summary again. To come again on Opening of your statement and my answer back, you establish the accuracy of the first argument (the direct connection of the section (1 Tim 2.8 to 11) with your second argument.

I suggest that we our debate on your first argument of the opening statements leave. I would, before we go into the second argument, however, like to discuss first on the third. I think the second argument for the crucial and would therefore like to first look at the third to be well prepared for the second.

Your third argument was, inter alia, that Paul in 1 Timothy 3, the conditions call for the elders of service, the term 'episkopos' (and the synonymous terms 'presbyteros' and 'Poimen') is an exclusively masculine noun . Then be made clear to the 'episkopos' man must be a woman. A woman can not be a man a woman.

I agree with you in such statements. Just as husbands and fathers are to exercise leadership in their families, according to 1 Tim 3.1 to 7 wise old men perceive as "bishops" or "elder" in the leadership of the community. The church needs leaders who have already shown their skills in the context of the family (1 Tim 3,2.4). An elder must, therefore, the husband of a woman is projecting his own house well and obedient (1 Tim 3,2.4) and devout (Titus 1:6) children. Obviously needs the passing of similar community wisdom and skills such as conducting a family (1 Timothy 3:5). The question is whether this transfer of current from the family to the community, which Paul takes in 1 Timothy, for all communities at all times is. If this is indeed the case and not only for communities that are, for example, as the church in Ephesus in a crisis that includes 3.1 to 7 1 Timothy (and Titus 1:6), not only women from the office of elder, but also men who have no teaching ability, not married, whose children are not religious or even have no children. Or how can one prove that he can project his house well if he has no house, he could preside over the? The question would then be but also how far Paul and Timothy even met these requirements? Were they married (1 Cor 7,1.7-8.25-27.32-34)? Did they have children? They were well before their houses? Did they even homes, where they were projecting? - It is definitely not permissible to single statements from the Requirements of elders in 1 Tim 3.2 to 7 weight more in purely arbitrary than others. If you want to use 1 Tim 3.2 to 7 in order to prove that only men are permitted to perform the office of elder and therefore the leadership in the community generally is reserved for men, then so too must all requirements demanded of these men validity.

Paul says in fact, an elder must be "husband of one wife" (1 Timothy 3:2), he concludes here do not explicitly that it could not be a wife of one man. It is interesting this context is that Paul in 1 Tim 3.8 to 11 at the requirements for deacons wrote that she would like the elders of the husband of one wife to be (1 Tim 3,2.12) and protruding her house well (1 Tim 3,4.12). Paul seems to like the elders, the deacons so only men to have in view. "Wife" in 1 Tim 3.11 could theoretically but instead on the Ehefraunen the deacons also refer to female deacons, the context of verse 12 seems to show that Paul is clearly emanates from men as deacons. The point, however, that Paul in Romans 16.1 Phoebe "deacon (männlich!) the community," calls and thus at least a female deacon was. Although Paul says in 1 Timothy 3 only of male deacons, not closed the women of this office from. For this reason, it is not permissible to argue that women are excluded from the office of elder, as Paul says in 1 Timothy 3 only of male elders.

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Reply # 2 by Kurt Vetterli

OK, Christian, I try, in order to respond to your votes:
with the comments on the "particular spiritual principle and its culture-related application" I am mostly agree. It corresponds to what I said previously. Only the "general Principle behind the headscarf wearing, I would somewhat reflect more specific, namely the fact that the woman should be subordinate to the authority of the man -. That they are putting their creation according to position correctly, lives, and so the man does honor to the headscarf (or obfuscation) is . the sign of submission

You write:
"in 1 Tim 2.8 Paul expressed a few sentences before the controversial statement in 1 Tim 2.12, he would that men pray every where, lifting up his hands here. Hardly a boom, that Paul's call "A woman does not allow me to teach them" universally understood, and this request represents the same urgency. "

Here you can quote from 1 Timothy 2:8 when something important away. You do that deliberately? Paul does not write, he would that men pray every where, lifting up his hands here. But he writes that the Men should pray in all places by holy hands pick . This is as opposed to mean that they could pick up unholy hands. This could be replaced with "I want them to pray in holy attitude" or "I want fold them up holy hands. "
you compare the outer (I care culturally determined) position of the hands in prayer the men with the" teachings of the woman. "But this is quite a quantum leap. If you want to compare something, compare the external attitude of men in prayer with the clothing of women in verse 9 immediately after.
In the next verse, verse 10, Paul goes on with instructions on spiritual attitude of the women, 11 also in verse There will be explicitly mentioned the submission. The subordination is practiced by the woman, as she does not teach, but is still behaving (V.12).

you wonder now at the end of your vote, whether the woman is not the submission to her husband can practice differently than by non-teaching (silent). I think not. First, corresponding to the teachings of the church is not an outer, culture-related posture. The teachings of the church as teaching in the word of God and as an authoritative guide to living out of a spiritual Gelert thing in itself. Second, we must not overlook that Paul just mentioned so in the context of the story of Adam and Eve. Actually, it says here that has occurred with the fall of something that must not be repeated in the community. Namely, that the woman instructs the man who taught him practically, the incorrect word (that of the devil instead of God) heard. The man obeyed the (teaching of) women. The spiritual order (hierarchy) was turned on its head, therefore it was a sin. The community is now the order of God for man (head and spiritual leader) and wife (God-given help, child) and meet the women give to no spiritual authority in the community.
It is interesting that you mention in the context, 1 Corinthians 14th There, Paul is out the vow of silence for women with the following sentence: " As in all churches of the saints, the women should keep silent in the churches ..." (1 Cor 14:33-34). General
Valid he could not say this: "How is it in all communities." - Shortly after, he also writes: "As the law says" - here an authority that goes far beyond the Corinthian (Greek) culture, it is biblical commandment!

collectively So again, what with Paul the order of creation (which was ignored in the Fall) and justified by the law can not simply be dismissed as culturally determined and ignored in our time.
It seems easy, here is not read God's Word in an attitude of willingness to obey, but are looking for loopholes for interpretation, by which one can justify its own practice.
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Answer # 2 Christian Haslebacher

The reproduction of the opinion of the interlocutor, and questions can help ensure that you understand the other person right, it is also true for debate. When I read your answer, I'm glad I gave my query.

you argue that one must distinguish between internal and external position. I agree with you in principle, but would not speak of internal and external position (which takes too short for me), but of universal validity, spiritual principle and the situation-and culture-oriented application. For example, the command of Paul that Christians should greet each other with a kiss (Rom 16:16; 1 Cor 16.20, 2 Cor 13:12; 1Thes 5.26), generally known as culture-related application of the spiritual principle of brotherly love understood. The command of Jesus to his disciples to wash one another's feet (John 13:14), is generally understood as a culture-related application of spiritual principle is to serve each other with humility and the other in a spiritual sense to keep clean deal to help ("Gal 6 0.1 to 2). One could cite many other examples in which distinguish between generally applicable, spiritual principle and its situation- and culture-related applications must distinguish. I would mention one from the field of women's Question: As a rule requiring that a woman would have the (public) prayer and prophetic speeches wearing a head covering (1 Cor 11.5-6), understood as culturally determined prompt. The general principle behind it is well that the woman should behave in a way that her husband, Christ, and she herself does not bring shame, but honor.

The point now is: Do certain biblical statements of fact, no character in time, but a cultural and situational, then the person who operates (consciously or unconsciously) criticism of the Bible, who will not admit it. (The converse is also true.) - These are some basic hermeneutical thought. Getting back to your first argument, the direct connection of the section in 1 Tim 2.8 to 11:

expressed in 1 Tim 2.8 Paul a few sentences before the controversial statement in 1 Timothy 2:00 , 12, he wants the men pray every where, lifting up his hands here. Hardly a boom, that Paul's call "A woman does not allow me to teach them" universally understood, and this request represents the same urgency. With good reason: First mentioned is the lifting of hands in the Bible merely as one of several prayer postures. Secondly, Paul is going here is less certain about the form of prayer than the prayer itself is likely the general principle behind this statement are in the correct posture of prayer, of reaching out to God, everything he expected and, with a clear conscience God does (Isa. 1:15-16). Nevertheless, it remains clear that Paul "did not I agree with his" I do "before his four verses (1 Tim 2:12) made any general statement. As for the statements on clothing, hair shaft and jewelry, you explain your answer in # 1 also himself, that it is culture-related These statements. Paul does so in 1 Tim 2.8 to 10 with his statements about the hands holding up, the clothes, the hair shaft and the jewelry louder cultural and situational applications of spiritual principles. The total direct context of 1 Timothy 2.12 screaming against us so: cultural and situational applications of spiritual principles.

The question now is whether one should not distinguish between 2.11 to 12 in 1 Tim generally valid, spiritual principle and situation-and culture-related applications. Could the subordination of the (married) women, compared with the (married) men (cf. 1 Cor 14.35 "their men") in this day and age not in other ways be expressed as the silence?

(Excuse me, I again conclude with a question. The fact that I would answer this question with "probably yes" is obvious. If you are answering the question another way, would be interested to know why.)

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Reply # 1 by Kurt Vetterli

Christian , You really do not answer to my statement, but merely holds it together.
Then put you a question , which actually is not a question if I they interpret law, but a wrapped in a question statement , understand that I about as follows :
" To say that Paul is here general instructions for Municipalities apply everywhere and at all times, then we say also that the men should raise their hands in prayer always . "

I would answer the following manner:
not look too much on individual terms, but make sure that the connection you do not lose sight! In context, it is
to attitudes. And not to external Attitudes, but the inner (which are naturally expressed by the outward appearances).
Paul says, how, with what inner attitude that women should dress and to lift the men's hands. It is primarily not about the nature of the dresses of the women nor the external position of prayer for men. The men are sacred
hold up his hands. The holding up of hands is just the usual prayer. Therefore there is nothing. It is to say about Paul: "The men are to pray and thereby be free of anger and evil." Whether they
high old hands from the chest or over their heads, or fold it at all, which plays as little a Role as the selection of clothes for women who are asked where they are to adorn themselves with good behavior, modesty, and modesty.

So: Yes, the instruction to the men to pray in holy attitude applies to all Christian men at all times. If we hold today in many places the hands in prayer, but rather fold for example, is not a violation of the statement in 1 Timothy 2:8. If we fold it but while Zorn (unforgiveness) in the heart, then we disregard the statement and sinful.
The statement (or prohibition) to the women to teach, to preach authoritatively, is not a question of the external position.

now wish I myself though that you do not answer back with another question, but explain your position ...

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response from Christian Haslebacher on the opening statement Kurt Vetterli:

First I would like to clarify that I do not represent the position that the statements in 1 Timothy 2.12 be temporary or local, but I take the position that at least some of the statements in 1 Timothy 2.12 to the Situation in which Paul writes, is limited. Should there be similar situations elsewhere, the statements in 1 Timothy 2.12 also have full validity.

you lead in your opening statement of three arguments on the basis of which you derive the general validity of the statements in 1 Timothy 2.12 to 14 for the Church of Christ of all time until the second coming of Christ:

1) The direct relationship of the section (1 Tim 2.8 to 11),

2) the context of the whole script (order of creation and fall of 1 Tim 2.13 to 14; creation order of 1 Corinthians 11.8-9),

3) The wider context of the letter (1 Timothy conditions for elders 3:1-13; statement in 1 Timothy 3:14-15).

I suggest that we focus the debate on these first three arguments and deal first with the first argument, the direct connection of the section (1 Tim 2.8 to 11).

May I assume that you represent the position that the men have set aside in the municipality in all the places their hands in prayer, as Paul in 1 Tim 2.8 that asks?

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