Reply # 2 by Kurt Vetterli
OK, Christian, I try, in order to respond to your votes:
with the comments on the "particular spiritual principle and its culture-related application" I am mostly agree. It corresponds to what I said previously. Only the "general Principle behind the headscarf wearing, I would somewhat reflect more specific, namely the fact that the woman should be subordinate to the authority of the man -. That they are putting their creation according to position correctly, lives, and so the man does honor to the headscarf (or obfuscation) is . the sign of submission
You write:
"in 1 Tim 2.8 Paul expressed a few sentences before the controversial statement in 1 Tim 2.12, he would that men pray every where, lifting up his hands here. Hardly a boom, that Paul's call "A woman does not allow me to teach them" universally understood, and this request represents the same urgency. "
Here you can quote from 1 Timothy 2:8 when something important away. You do that deliberately? Paul does not write, he would that men pray every where, lifting up his hands here. But he writes that the Men should pray in all places by holy hands pick . This is as opposed to mean that they could pick up unholy hands. This could be replaced with "I want them to pray in holy attitude" or "I want fold them up holy hands. "
you compare the outer (I care culturally determined) position of the hands in prayer the men with the" teachings of the woman. "But this is quite a quantum leap. If you want to compare something, compare the external attitude of men in prayer with the clothing of women in verse 9 immediately after.
In the next verse, verse 10, Paul goes on with instructions on spiritual attitude of the women, 11 also in verse There will be explicitly mentioned the submission. The subordination is practiced by the woman, as she does not teach, but is still behaving (V.12).
you wonder now at the end of your vote, whether the woman is not the submission to her husband can practice differently than by non-teaching (silent). I think not. First, corresponding to the teachings of the church is not an outer, culture-related posture. The teachings of the church as teaching in the word of God and as an authoritative guide to living out of a spiritual Gelert thing in itself. Second, we must not overlook that Paul just mentioned so in the context of the story of Adam and Eve. Actually, it says here that has occurred with the fall of something that must not be repeated in the community. Namely, that the woman instructs the man who taught him practically, the incorrect word (that of the devil instead of God) heard. The man obeyed the (teaching of) women. The spiritual order (hierarchy) was turned on its head, therefore it was a sin. The community is now the order of God for man (head and spiritual leader) and wife (God-given help, child) and meet the women give to no spiritual authority in the community.
It is interesting that you mention in the context, 1 Corinthians 14th There, Paul is out the vow of silence for women with the following sentence: " As in all churches of the saints, the women should keep silent in the churches ..." (1 Cor 14:33-34). General
Valid he could not say this: "How is it in all communities." - Shortly after, he also writes: "As the law says" - here an authority that goes far beyond the Corinthian (Greek) culture, it is biblical commandment!
collectively So again, what with Paul the order of creation (which was ignored in the Fall) and justified by the law can not simply be dismissed as culturally determined and ignored in our time.
It seems easy, here is not read God's Word in an attitude of willingness to obey, but are looking for loopholes for interpretation, by which one can justify its own practice.
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